Champion Country subsumed into another.... ?

[kevinmce]

I had thought of this before coming to the page today, although the idea might otherwise have grown out of the Merged Clubs discussion below.

All of this is quite unlikely, but what if the following chain of events, as an example, were to occur:
1) Estonia become UFWC Champions
2) Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania decide to fuse together as one state, Balticia, which resolves to put out only one international football team.
3) FIFA declare the new Balticia team to be the inheritors of the records of Lithuania, and that Estonia and Latvia are consigned to history.

Then what?

Perhaps an alternative (though not much more likely) scenario with the same predicament: some lackey going through the archives in FIFA headquarters discovers a fax reporting that the Belgians had no intention of considering their match against Greece in January 1990 to be a full international. FIFA amend their archives accordingly, meaning that Belgium were still champions when they played (and lost to) East Germany in September 1990, the last match played by the Germans.
FIFA did not accredit the united German team with the historical acheivements of E Germany: would UFWC?

[jessekuiper]

If we would follow the reasoning Pete Waring has used in his Unofficial Wooden Stinghy schedule (see this thread), East Germany would probably be the UWFC champions forever in that case.

FIFA recognises the post-Soviet Estonian teams as the inheritors of the records of the Estonian team that existed until World War II. So, according to Pete Waring's logic, Estonia has been the worst team in the world for over half a century, even though they did not exist as an independent country in that period!

Back to your East Germany example: they would still be the UFWC champions, although they do not exist anymore. But if somehow East Germany would decide to undo the reunification with the West in the future, they can have their own football team again and defend the title they won in 1990.

Another scenario is if Germany would totally split up in 16 seperate countries (the current Bundesländer), like what has happened to Yugoslavia and the USSR. Maybe FIFA would accredit f.e. the Saxonian team with the historical acheivements of East Germany. In that case, the first FIFA-regulated match of the Saxonian football team would be the first UFWC title match of this century.

[dapoolrulz]

In response to your hypothetical question, I've been thinking of how it would possibly be decided, and have come up with a possible answer:

Its easier to understand my conclusion if you take it into a boxing context. If Estonia, the champions, were to "retire", the title would become vacated. Looking at the very first UFWC match, the title was contested in the first international football match ever. If taken in the context of your argument, I would say that the very next international match after the vacation of the title would be a title match, regardless of the teams.

[jessekuiper]

@ dapoolrulz: Your solution is interesting, but it could be a problem that many international matches are played on the same day, especially during qualification tournaments.

[dapoolrulz]

@ jessekuiper: Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

[defoesrightboot]

I would suggest that if this happened then the subsuming country would become champions - but, should the subsumation (is that even a word?) ever be reversed then the whole thing woudl need to be recalculated.

To use the wooden whotsit (it's ridiculous that you can't type a common piece of cutlery!) as an example, if it had been calculated whilst the Soviet Union was still going, then at the point that Estonia was subsumed into the USSR, then the USSR should have held the wooden sthingy until they beat someone, etc etc etc. But once Estonia regained independence, those records would be wiped and Estonia would regain their crown as the worst team in the world.

Basically, for the purposes of the UFWC (and affiliated titles) I think that any nation being subsumed by another whilst holding a title passes that title to the subsumer, but that title run is indefinitely subject to the assumption that the subsumation is not reversed.

Tricky one though!

[defoesrightboot]

A more realistic scenario than the original post though, would be this one :

England, Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales become UFWC champions.
Great Britain enter a team in the 2012 Olympics.
FIFA decide that because of this they must then only compete as a unified team from then on.

I'd say that Great Britain then become UFWC champions. And, in that case, would they then take on the previous records of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales - or all of them, putting them in an unassailable position in the overall rankings?!?!?

[kevinmce]

But FIFA would only consider one of the teams (almost certainly England) to be the team who bequeath their historical records to Great Britain: my question was based on the scenario if it were Scotland, Wakes or N. Ireland who were the holders just before the Olympics.

[petewaring]

Further to the above debate, if the USSR had taken over the sp00n after the "subsumation" of Estonia, the sp00n would then have journeyed around as follows:

16 7 1952 Bulgaria
24 10 1954 East Germany
18 9 1955 Romania
28 9 1955 Belgium
25 12 1955 France
25 3 1956 Austria
30 9 1956 Luxembourg
8 10 1961 Portugal
16 12 1962 Bulgaria
23 1 1963 Portugal
21 4 1963 Brazil
28 4 1963 France
26 10 1963 Bulgaria
23 2 1965 Greece
16 10 1966 Finland
25 6 1969 Spain
15 10 1969 Finland
21 6 1972 Albania
10 10 1973 Finland
15 8 1974 Norway
4 9 1974 Northern Ireland
30 10 1974 Sweden
19 5 1975 Algeria
26 5 1975 Libya
23 12 1975 Syria
7 10 1976 Jordan
10 10 1976 Mauritania
12 2 1980 Mali
28 9 1980 Mauritania
12 10 1980 Mali
9 12 1980 Togo
14 12 1980 Niger
28 12 1980 Togo
14 4 1981 Congo
21 8 1981 Gabon
7 12 1985 Congo
9 12 1985 Central Af Rep
2 12 1988 Chad
7 12 1989 Congo
18 8 1990 Malawi
11 12 1990 Tanzania
14 12 1990 Zimbabwe
14 4 1991 Malawi
19 8 1991 Mozambique
20 6 1992 Swaziland
25 10 1992 Zaire
25 7 1993 Lesotho
13 11 1994 Cameroon
4 6 1995 Lesotho
26 1 1997 Swaziland
2 3 1997 Mozambique
15 6 1997 Tanzania
22 6 1997 Togo
13 7 1997 Liberia
27 7 1997 Tanzania
26 7 1999 Djibouti
16 11 2007 Somalia
3 1 2009 Tanzania
7 1 2009 Rwanda

This obviously differs dramatically from the other list, which has Niger as the sp00n holder. Hopefully, one day there will be a sp00n unification bout between the two different holders!

[jessekuiper]

In boxing, what happens when the reigning champion retires, or dies?