Recopa Mundial

[zelenazvezda]

Looks like it's back to the drawing board... PSV shouldn't have been eligible until their 1988 European Cup win. They won the UEFA Cup in 1978, but didn't convert that into a Super Cup win, so they couldn't have played for the Super Title.

As for you question:

Oh and the question is: If an unqualified team wins over the title holder in a final (thus becomeing qualified!) - do they gain the title instantly or is the next season their first chance? I tend to say: No, you can't get quallified and win the title in the same match. What do you think?


In the Recopa Mundial, you cannot become eligible AND win the title in the same match. You first qualify for the competition and only AFTER that will you challenge for the trophy the next time you face the holders.

[zelenazvezda]

Not to mention PSV couldn't have added the Super Cup to the the UEFA Cup win since at the time it was contested between the European Cup and the Cup Winners Cup winners

[zelenazvezda]

Also, I noticed the following:

#14 | CC QF | 19/02/1969 | AC Milan vs. Celtic Glasgow | 0-0
#15 | DL 10 | 02/03/1969 | AC Milan vs. Inter | 1-1
#16 | CC QF | 12/03/1969 | AC Milan vs. Celtic Glasgow | 1-0


Which suggests you don't freeze the trophy until a two-legged tie is resolved. The Recopa Mundial does lock the trophy until a multi-leg tie is decided either way. In the above example, it doesn't make a difference, but what if Celtic had won the 1st leg 1-0, and Milan the 2nd by, say, 4-1? Then you would already have taken the trophy to Celtic on the basis of the first leg, and had they faced a different eligible team before the 2nd leg against Milan, they could've lost it to that third party which would've made the 2nd leg a non-title deciding game.

Of course, that in itself would be a perfectly acceptable approach, but by locking the trophy until the entire tie is resolved, you prevent situations in which a team beaten by a big margin in the first leg (5-0 or so) then defeat their conquerors' weaker second lineup (why would they bother risking their star players when the tie is safe?) in the return by, say, 1-0, to emerge from the tie as losers, but as new holders of the virtual Super Trophy.

[carter]

1) To be honest I didn't really think that much about two legged games. I just went on game by game - and March 2nd is before March 12th. I know this may lead to strange results, but your solution is neither fish nor fowl. If you tie two legged games together, imho you have to do it everytime.

So either there is just one game between AC Milan and Celtic Glasgow (date problem) ending 1-0 on aggregate, thus AC Milan defending the title on 12/03 - this is a problem, because if Celtic won, their in-between-opponent (given there was one) can't claim the title - or there are two games, the first being tied (thus AC Milan defending) and the second being won by AC Milan (defending a second time) - this however leads to the problems, you described.

I think it is best to count two legged games as two games (possible title matches), because of two reasons: On one hand it's "more true" to the original idea of boxing style ranking format, because it's "one fight, one win" and on the other hand this solution doesn't favour league defences over international defences (because two wins in one leg would only count as one defence in your format).

2) Unfortunally, you are right about PSV Eindhoven. I don't know, what made me think, they won the Supercup in 1978. I have correctd the list of qualified teams accordingly. This leads to a recalculation of all matches from season 1978/79 onwards. However the first 23 matches remain unchanged. The current status is:

#23 | DL 23 | 12/02/1978 | Ajax Amsterdam vs. Feyenoord | 1-1

Champions: (gains and defences by win)

04 AC Milan
03 Inter
02 Benfica
02 Real Madrid
02 Ajax Amsterdam
01 Manchester United

3) If anyone notices other errors in my research, please let me know before i get to this years season

[zelenazvezda]

"If you tie two legged games together, imho you have to do it everytime."

Which is why I do just that.

[carter]

Okay, I got you wrong then. Sorry.

I have come to think about this issue again and I now agree with you, because there is another problem with two legged games, we didn't even mention yet:

What if Team A wins the first game by 1-0 (gaining/defending the title) and Team B wins the second game by 0-1. In my system Team B would (re)gain the title from Team A after 90 Minutes. But there would be extra time and maybe penalty shootout. What if Team A wins on penaltys? Does the title swing back (three matches?) or does it stick with Team B (win after 90 Minutes)? This is why I changed my mind. I'll do as you proposed and "freeze" the title at two legged games.

Unfortunally this means, I have to redo nearly all of my previous work, because the second and third ever title match have to be changed to:

#01 | CC F | 02/05/1962 | Benfica vs. Real Madrid | 5-3

#02 | CC QF | 24/02/1965 | Benfica vs. Real Madrid | 5-1
#02 | CC QF | 17/03/1965 | Benfica vs. Real Madrid | 1-2 (agg 6-3)

[zelenazvezda]

Still, it's better to do it now than from the 1990s onwards, because that's when the number of title bouts ought to really take off, with so many different eligible teams.


And yeah, the scenario in which the winner of the penalty shootout is different from the 90 minutes winner is one of the additional reasons why the total outcome of the tie ought to count. That doesn't take away from the original boxing-style format IMO, it just becomes a fight over 24 or more rounds instead of 12

[bardino]

IO UN LAVORO L'HO FATTO SONO ARRIVATO AL MARZO 1993, PERò HO CONTATO SOLTANTO LE VINCITRICE DELLA COPPA CAMPIONI....VEDETE VOI E DECIDETE....QUESTA è LA LISTA:
30/05/1956 si qualifica REAL MADRID
31/05/1961 si qualifica BENFICA
02/05/1962 BENFICA REAL MADRID 5-3. BENFICA CH
22/05/1963 si qualifica MILAN
27/05/1964 si qualifica INTER
.1965 BENFICA REAL MADRID 5-1. CH
.1965 REAL MADRID BENFICA 2-1. CH
TOT. BENFICA REAL MADRID 6-3. BENFICA
27/05/1965 INTER BENFICA 1-0 INTER CH
21/11/1966 INTER MILAN 1-1. INTER L
03/04/1966 MILAN INTER 1-2. INTER L
13/04/1966 REAL MADRID INTER 1-0 CH
20/04/1966 INTER REAL MADRID 1-1. CH
TOT. REAL MADRID INTER 2-1. REAL MADRID
15/02/1967 INTER REAL MADRID 1-0 CH
01/03/1967 REAL MADRID INTER 0-2 CH
TOT. INTER REAL MADRID 3-0 INTER
02/04/1967 INTER MILAN 4-0 INTER L
25/05/1967 si qualifica CELTIC
22/10/1967 INTER MILAN 1-1. INTER L
18/02/1968 MILAN INTER 1-1. INTER L
29/05/1968 si qualifica MANCHESTER UTD
16/06/1968 INTER MILAN 0-0 INTER CN
25/06/1968 MILAN INTER 4-2. MILAN CN
03/11/1968 MILAN INTER 1-0 MILAN L
19/02/1969 MILAN CELTIC 0-0 CH
12/03/1969 CELTIC MILAN 0-1 CH
TOT. MILAN CELTIC 1-0 MILAN
23/04/1969 MILAN MANCHESTER UTD 2-0 CH
14/05/1969 MANCHESTER UTD MILAN 1-0 CH
TOT. MILAN MANCHESTER UTD 2-1. MILAN
09/11/1969 INTER MILAN 0-0 MILAN L

[bardino]

08/03/1970 MILAN INTER 0-1 INTER L
26/05/1970 si qualifica FEYENOORD
08/11/1970 MILAN INTER 3-0 MILAN L
07/03/1971 INTER MILAN 2-0 INTER L
02/06/1971 si qualifica AJAX
28/11/1971 INTER MILAN 2-3. MILAN L
19/03/1972 MILAN INTER 1-1. MILAN L
08/06/1972 MILAN INTER 1-0 MILAN CN
28/06/1972 INTER MILAN 0-1 MILAN CN
19/11/1972 MILAN INTER 3-2. MILAN L
18/03/1973 INTER MILAN 0-2 MILAN L
02/12/1973 INTER MILAN 2-1. INTER L
24/03/1974 MILAN INTER 1-5. INTER L
.1974 MILAN INTER 0-1 INTER CN
.1974 INTER MILAN 2-1. INTER CN
17/05/1974 si qualifica BAYER MONACO
10/11/1974 INTER MILAN 0-0 INTER L
09/03/1975 MILAN INTER 3-0 MILAN L
.1975 INTER MILAN 0-1 MILAN CN
.1975 MILAN INTER 0-0 MILAN CN
02/12/1975 MILAN INTER 2-1. MILAN L
28/03/1976 INTER MILAN 0-1 MILAN L
28/11/1976 MILAN INTER 1-1. MILAN L
27/03/1977 INTER MILAN 0-0 MILAN L
25/05/1977 si qualifica LIVERPOOL
03/07/1977 MILAN INTER 2-0 MILAN CN
06/11/1977 INTER MILAN 1-3. MILAN L
12/03/1978 MILAN INTER 0-0 MILAN L
12/11/1978 MILAN INTER 1-0 MILAN L
18/03/1979 INTER MILAN 2-2. MILAN L
30/05/1979 si qualifica NOTTINGHAM F.
28/10/1979 INTER MILAN 2-0 INTER L

[bardino]

02/03/1980 MILAN INTER 0-1 INTER L
07/09/1980 MILAN INTER 0-1 INTER CN
08/04/1981 REAL MADRID INTER 2-0 CH
22/04/1981 INTER REAL MADRID 1-0 CH
TOT. REAL MADRID INTER 2-1. REAL MADRID
27/05/1981 LIVERPOOL REAL MADRID 1-0 LIVERPOOL CH
24/10/1981 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 1-2. MANCHESTER U. L
07/04/1982 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 0-1 LIVERPOOL L
01/05/1982 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 LIVERPOOL L
26/05/1982 si qualifica ASTON VILLA
07/09/1982 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 4-3. LIVERPOOL L
16/10/1982 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 0-0 LIVERPOOL L
18/12/1982 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 2-4. LIVERPOOL L
26/03/1983 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
26/03/1983 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 1-0 LIVERPOOL CNL
02/05/1983 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 1-0 NOTTINGHAM F. L
25/05/1983 si qualifica AMBURGO
31/08/1983 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 1-2. NOTTINGHAM F. L
03/09/1983 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 1-0 LIVERPOOL L
17/09/1983 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 2-1. LIVERPOOL L
24/09/1983 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-0 MANCHESTER U. L
05/11/1983 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 1-2. ASTON VILLA L
20/01/1984 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 1-3. LIVERPOOL L
07/03/1984 BENFICA LIVERPOOL 1-0 CH.
21/03/1984 LIVERPOOL BENFICA 4-1. CH.
TOT. BENFICA LIVERPOOL 1-5. LIVERPOOL
22/09/1984 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
24/10/1984 LIVERPOOL BENFICA 3-1. CH
07/11/1984 BENFICA LIVERPOOL 1-0 CH
TOT. LIVERPOOL BENFICA 3-2. LIVERPOOL
22/09/1984 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
15/12/1984 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 0-0 LIVERPOOL L
05/01/1985 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 3-0 LIVERPOOL FACUP
02/03/1985 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 1-0 LIVERPOOL L
31/03/1985 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 0-1 MANCHESTER U. L
13/04/1985 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 2-2. FACUP
17/04/1985 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 2-1. MANCHESTER U. FACUP REPLAY
06/05/1985 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 MANCHESTER U. L
29/05/1985 si qualifica JUVENTUS
17/08/1985 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 4-0 MANCHESTER U. L
31/08/1985 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 1-3. MANCHESTER U. L
19/10/1985 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L.
26/11/1985 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 2-1. LIVERPOOL CL
07/12/1985 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 3-0 LIVERPOOL L
28/12/1985 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
09/02/1985 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
07/05/1986 si qualifica STEAUA BUCAREST
27/09/1986 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 3-3. LIVERPOOL L.
26/12/1986 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 0-1. MANCHESTER U. L.
28/03/1987 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 MANCHESTER U. L.
20/04/1987 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-0 MANCHESTER U. L
09/05/1987 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 3-1. MANCHESTER U. L
27/05/1987 si qualifica PORTO
31/10/1987 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 2-2. MANCHESTER U. L
15/11/1987 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L
19/03/1988 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 0-0 MANCHESTER U. L
04/04/1988 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 3-3. MANCHESTER U. L
25/05/1988 si qualifica PSV EINDHOVEN
03/09/1988 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 1-0 LIVERPOOL L
10/09/1988 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
26/10/1988 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 2-1. NOTTINGHAM F. L
01/12/1989 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 MANCHESTER U. L
01/01/1989 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 3-1. MANCHESTER U. L
12/03/1989 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 0-0 MANCHESTER U. L
18/03/1989 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 0-1 NOTTINGHAM F. FACUP
27/03/1989 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 2-0 NOTTINGHAM F. L
19/08/1989 NOTTINGHAM F. ASTON VILLA 1-1. NOTTINGHAM F. L
12/11/1989 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 1-0 MANCHESTER U. L
23/12/1989 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 0-0 MANCHESTER U. L
26/12/1989 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 3-0 ASTON VILLA L
17/04/1990 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 2-0 MANCHESTER U. L
02/05/1990 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 4-0 NOTTINGHAM F. L
28/08/1990 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 LIVERPOOL L
01/09/1990 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 2-1. LIVERPOOL L
16/09/1990 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 4-0 LIVERPOOL L.
31/10/1990 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 3-1. MANCHESTER U. CL
29/12/1990 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L
03/02/1991 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L
16/03/1991 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L
06/04/1991 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 1-1. MANCHESTER U. L
29/05/1991 si qualifica STELLA ROSSA
21/08/1991 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 0-1 MANCHESTER U. L
06/10/1991 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 0-0 MANCHESTER U. L
19/11/1991 MANCHESTER UTD STELLA ROSSA 1-0 MANCHESTER U. SCU
22/01/1992 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 1-0 MANCHESTER U. L
18/03/1992 NOTTINGHAM F. MANCHESTER UTD 1-0. NOTTINGHAM F. L

[carter]

Wow, great work!

Unfortunally I don't understand any Spanish/Italian/Portugese, so I don't understand everything. But I guess "si qualificia" means "gets qualified" and "UTD" means "vs."

[brunei]

UTD is the short for United (Manchester United). Stella Rossa means Belgrade Red Star. I just speak Spanish, Italian and English

[brunei]

Until 1992, is the champion Nottingham Forest? or the World Champions still being Velez?

[carter]

Hi brunei,

I don't really get your question. As you see above just before 1992 (to be exact 19/11/1991) ManU defended their title against Red Star Belgrade (thx for your translation). Then they didn't play the next match before 1992, so the first champion in 1992 was ManU. In 1992 however they lost the title to Nottingham Forest on 18/03/1992.

What do you mean by "until 1992"? And who is "Velez"?

[bardino]

12/04/1992 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 1-0 MANCHESTER U. CL
20/04/1992 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 1-2. NOTTINGHAM F. L
22/04/1992 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 1-1. NOTTINGHAM F. L
20/05/1992 si qualifica BARCELONA
16/08/1992 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 0-1 NOTTINGHAM F. L
29/08/1992 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 2-0 MANCHESTER U. L
18/10/1992 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 2-2. MANCHESTER U. L
28-ott ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 1-0 ASTON VILLA CL
07/11/1992 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 1-0 ASTON VILLA L
12/12/1992 ASTON VILLA NOTTINGHAM F. 2-1. ASTON VILLA L
09/01/1993 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 2-1. ASTON VILLA L
14/03/1993 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 1-1. ASTON VILLA L
04/04/1993 NOTTINGHAM F. ASTON VILLA 0-1. ASTON VILLA L
26/05/1993 si qualifica OL.MARSEILLE
23/08/1993 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 2-1. MANCHESTER U. L
19/12/1993 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 3-1. MANCHESTER U. L
04/01/1994 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 3-3. MANCHESTER U. L
27/03/1994 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 3-1. ASTON VILLA CL
07/05/1994 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 2-1. ASTON VILLA L
15/09/1994 INTER ASTON VILLA 1-0
29/09/1994 ASTON VILLA INTER 1-0
TOT. ASTON VILLA INTER 5-4dcr ASTON VILLA UC
08/10/1994 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 3-2. LIVERPOOL L
05/11/1994 LIVERPOOL NOTTINGHAM F. 1-0 LIVERPOOL L
04/02/1995 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 1-1. LIVERPOOL L
19/03/1995 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 2-0 LIVERPOOL L
06/05/1995 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 2-0 ASTON VILLA L
19/08/1995 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 3-1. ASTON VILLA L
23/09/1995 ASTON VILLA NOTTINGHAM F. 1-1. ASTON VILLA L
10/12/1995 NOTTINGHAM F. ASTON VILLA 1-1. ASTON VILLA L
13/01/1996 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 0-0 ASTON VILLA L
31/01/1996 ASTON VILLA LIVERPOOL 0-2 LIVERPOOL L
03/03/1996 LIVERPOOL ASTON VILLA 3-0 LIVERPOOL L
23/03/1996 NOTTINGHAM F. LIVERPOOL 1-0 NOTTINGHAM F. L
28/04/1996 MANCHESTER UTD NOTTINGHAM F. 5-0 MANCHESTER U. L
11/05/1996 MANCHESTER UTD LIVERPOOL 1-0 MANCHESTER U. L
11/09/1996 JUVENTUS MANCHESTER UTD 1-0 JUVENTUS CH
20/10/1996 JUVENTUS INTER 2-0 JUVENTUS L
13/11/1996 JUVENTUS INTER 0-3 CN
27/11/1996 INTER JUVENTUS 1-1. CN
TOT. INTER JUVENTUS 4-1. INTER
09/03/1997 INTER JUVENTUS 0-0 INTER L
13/04/1997 INTER MILAN 3-1. INTER L
28/05/1997 si qualifica BOR. DORTMUND
23/11/1997 INTER MILAN 2-2. INTER L
04/01/1998 INTER JUVENTUS 1-0 INTER L
07/01/1998 MILAN INTER 5-0 CN
21/01/1998 INTER MILAN 1-0 CN
TOT. MILAN INTER 5-1. MILAN
22/03/1998 MILAN INTER 0-3 INTER L
26/04/1998 JUVENTUS INTER 1-0 JUVENTUS L
20/05/1998 REAL MADRID JUVENTUS 1-0 REAL MADRID CH
16/09/1998 REAL MADRID INTER 2-0 REAL MADRID CH
19/09/1998 REAL MADRID BARCELONA 2-2. REAL MADRID L
25/11/1998 INTER REAL MADRID 3-1. INTER CH
28/02/1999 INTER JUVENTUS 0-0 INTER L
03/03/1999 MANCHESTER UTD INTER 2-0 CH
17/03/1999 INTER MANCHESTER UTD 1-1. CH
TOT. MANCHESTER UTD INTER 3-1. MANCHESTER U.
07/04/1999 MANCHESTER UTD JUVENTUS 1-1. CH
21/04/1999 JUVENTUS MANCHESTER UTD 2-3. CH
TOT. MANCHESTER UTD JUVENTUS 4-3. MANCHESTER U.
25/04/1999 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 2-1. MANCHESTER U. L
05/05/1999 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 2-2. MANCHESTER U. L
26/05/1999 MANCHESTER UTD BAYERN MONACO 2-1. MANCHESTER U. CH
11/09/1999 LIVERPOOL MANCHESTER UTD 2-3. MANCHESTER U. L
29/09/1999 MANCHESTER UTD OL.MARSEILLE 2-1. MANCHESTER U. CH
13/10/1999 ASTON VILLA MANCHESTER UTD 3-0 ASTON VILLA CL
30/10/1999 MANCHESTER UTD ASTON VILLA 3-0 MANCHESTER U. L